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Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture. Start from there and go on! Look at the following and verify his statements for yourself: We are not Jacob children. The entire 70 weeks of Daniel are obviously about Israel. Revelation is about the Jewish nation not the Church. The tribulation serves the purpose of bringing his nations back to him. As I posted before, here is the link to the article that cites the ancient manuscripts where church fathers are writing about a pre-tribulation rapture.

Sorry, that is not good enough, especially in light of the past of the New Testament, with spurious additions and it thousands of interpolation, it would be like me citing an article from the Mad magazine as factual.


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Anyway, I think that is enough said on this topic, we should move on to fresher pastures, so to speak. Once again, you have proven my point. The article contains quotes from historical documents written by Christians. It is not Bible Scripture. And the documents — writings on the faith of early Christians, show they believed in the pre-tribulation Rapture.

And this pre-dated Darby by years. So again, when presented with actual, substantive evidence, you just ignore it and continue with incorrect reasoning. And now you are resorting to just making insults. So as I said initially, my criticism of you stands. You can create the picture at http: All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We are u saved by grace through faith not by works lest no man should boast. Although we should do works after we are reborn, this is not how to achieve salvation.

We just want to endure and overcome as required and are willing to not love our life to the end. We are willing to be martyrs not actually wanting to be persecuted. And for the people willing to beheaded, yes, I feel this is getting off almost easy but the truth is you may be burned alive, crucified, repeatedly tortured, and women and little girls, I mean little, are repeatedly brutally raped to the point of death or mutilation requiring surgery and permanently being barren. I believe that this will be the worst part perhaps much worse than death, starvation or dehydration as many are forced to endure watching their loved ones be tortured so they might deny the faith.

Please pray you will be strong and continue to stand in that day should you have to. God bless you greatly, people. There ARE much worse things than death. I do hope I am wrong and we go before it gets really bad…. Paul is clearly waiting for it before the tribulation. Why would God make the Bible false by such a misleading verse. If one verse is useless or wrong or false then the whole Bible is irrelevant. The people mentioned as non pre-tribulation believers above are incredibly knowledgeable and have brought incredible insight to the Christian community.

But they definitely got it wrong somewhere about the rapture. We have to look at Thessalonians 4: I suppose we will have to wait and see — Intriguing. GOD has a sense of humor and leaves a bit of mystery and that is what makes the brain think which is what it is there for. GOD wants us to share thoughts and think in an amicable manner. That is what I love about this site as it is challenging and I have learnt so much.

As I keep mentioning, what really did it for me was the studying of the jewish traditions and cultures. You also aligned Catholicism as a political organisation, and yet, you preach Pauline Christianity, which the universal catholic church invented. The Jerusalem church detested Paul for his criminality, so why revere such a man that would lie, cheat, steal and murder! These are but two comment about Paul, written by esteemed scholars.

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Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther, in his reformation failed to realize, is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ, Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. Making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ.

Paul was seen as the demon-driven enemy of the Messiah…. For the legitimate Church, Paul was a dangerous and disruptive influence, bent on enlisting a large following among the Gentiles in order to provide himself with a numerical superiority with the support of which he could set at defiance the Elders at Jerusalem.

Paul had been the enemy from the beginning. The fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as any human reasoning that is not biased! There had to be an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent presence to have initiated this present existence that we find ourselves in. There is no way for it to have just started on its own without a transendant initiation. If life can spontaneously evolve from non-living materials, then how come the most sophisticated multi-million dollar biology labs to date have yet to produce a single solitary cell of life from non-living material?

It seems that life cannot be created by the most elaborate and ambitious of human controlled conditions so how in the world could life simply spontaneously evolve with absolutely no external influence? So, I would have to strongly disagree with that historical persceptive of Paul, because if his sole objective was personal gain and notoriety, then he was a most miserable failure! No, I do not pick and choose history, I am neither for or against, what I do not like is hypocrisy or double standards of making history fit what Christianity assumes to be true, when it is just misguided or mislead faith on the part of the early church.

We do not blindly our trust in faith, we have to authenticate, not once, but three or more, before we attest information as being true! When you talk about an omnipotent being, whom I take you are referring to the creator of the universe, some Who was probably the last of the gods to appear to human kind a mere 6, ago. I believe in science and the great thinkers of our time, who categorically state that: Your argument that science cannot produce anything from dead material, and that a divine intervention is needed, you would be better coming into the 21st century.

On Paul you forgot that he was shipwrecked in Malta on his way to Rome, and he found, whilst incarcerated, ink and paper to write his biography. Ignatius of Antioch 35 or 50—98 or was another saint who wrote his letters whilst incarcerated before he was eaten by lions, however, scholarship consensus is that his letters epistles were fakes and forgeries from the 3rd century. I challenge you to show me where any laboratory has taken a totally sterile sample of dirt and created ANY form of living DNA from it. And I stand by my statement that your viewpoint is indeed biased, as you vigorously quote any historical findings that bolster your view that Christianity has a very jaded history of violence and evil deeds and yet you seem so ignorant of the historical malice of Islam for one.

On the matter of your age, I am indeed older, my late daughter would have been your age. Science tells us that the earth was created 4. Science has also supplied us with how life first started on earth with what is termed a primordial stew slime , which took millions of years of evolution. Then we go from a single cell organism microbes with further evolution to a gradually multiplying cell, who by this time live in the sea, before some ventured on land. However, if we go back to earth creation—can we say the earth was sterile? NASA believed the meteorite fell to earth some 16 million years ago, however, at the time of discovery, NASA thought at first it was earth microbes from the frozen waste that had contaminated the sample.

That was until another Martian meteorite was found in a dessert with the same microbes, etc. Science went one further and used DNA to produce life, a copy clone of the donor. Christians, however, say that all this science is against gods will! But, mortal men for millennia have been making themselves god!

The Egyptian Pharaohs and Roman emperors believed they were gods, then Christianity in CE, made a mortal man a god, then in CE, they made his mother a Goddess, and in a gathering of Bishops made their pope a demigod, by making him infallible. You are incredibly confused and all we can provide are prayers, from this blog, at this point.

We cannot continue to debate your atheism, evolution, your undesired understanding of Christianity and the Bible on this blog. You are clearly hijacking this site to spread misinformation and confuse people that seeks God. Evolution is not a science but a belief and that is a fact. Evolution goes against several fundamental scientific rules and laws. Please chose a site that discuss the several topics you have started on this blog.

This is about the pre-tribulation rapture that factually predates Darby. Thanks for your concern. You will have to debate with Jero at your own risk, for lack of a better term. As you have correctly pointed out, his comments center on polemics against the Roman Catholic Church. And I appreciate your concern for the thread being taken off track. An appropriate warning has been given. If we believe both these, then Tribulation belongs to the Bible verse of 1 Thessalonians 4: Which was later taken up by the infamous Cyrus I.

Scofield, a known villain, who published his Reference Bible, in , commonly known as the Scofield. The same root word for Rapture is used to name birds of Prey—Raptors, birds that were once seen by the ancestors as deities, lords of the clouds, lords of the air, and lords of the sky. We all interpret what we see or read differently, and we can see parallels in everything, it might be only one word, or half a sentence, it all comes down to who is interpreting.

For myself, I see a parallel between 1 Thessalonian 4: And that of the way Native American see the Eagle. The dictionary of scripture and myth, describes the eagle as; A symbol of the holy spirit, which flies, as it were, through the mind air from the higher nature heaven to the lower nature earth and soars aloft to the self sun.

Eagle flew, rising higher and higher with hardly a ripple on his outstretched wings. You will be king over all the Birds of the Air. You will soar in the Sky. You will live on the crags and peaks of the highest Mountains. Human Beings will admire you. Everyone watched him disappear in the Sky.

Sweat Lodge called him back. You will have to be content as you are…. R Williams is referring to the Rapture: A sermon written by T. Rhonda Williams explores the tradition within the English church of placing the bible on the outstretched wings of an eagle, and concludes; In sacred symbolism the eagle stands for that power of the rising above the earth, above the physical and the literal, and penetrating spiritual institution. Your assertion about the Rapture is completely incorrect. Please see the article below where we show that from the 2nd century, church fathers were writing about the Rapture.

So the notion that Darby invented it is just patently false. I was referring to the Pre-Tribulation theology, not the Tribulation, check my comments. I stand by my statement that certain Christian factions, wrote their own brand of Christianity, which was known as the Futurist movement.

This is what the say: The pre-tibulation theology predate Darby. It has been proven on countless occasions and is very well documented. That you stick to wikipedia as your source is simply your choice. Thank you for all the wonderful debates that never fail to challenge me. I am now reading the bible from beginning to end and at 6 pages a day for almost days I will get through it the version that I have is the contemporary version. Before answering your question, I have discovered that in the comments section on this blog, it is wise to give a few disclaimers, or your thought will be entirely misrepresented by some folks who frequent the section.

There are also those who believe that this term applies only to Roman Catholic church leaders. This is a false notion, though understandably believable. Sadly, the history of the Christian church has been skewed sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally by leaders of other religions, by Protestant leadership, and even by the RCC itself.

When it was founded not by Constantine as many claim, but by the crowning of Charlemagne a great deal later , it still took approximately years before the term applied almost exclusively to the RCC. Moreover, many of those Early Church Fathers wrote much of the theology and apologetics still understood and used in the whole of Christianity today- Not just within the RCC, but Protestantism also. Denying the way in which God used these men their writings were of Divine Inspiration, though much was certainly divinely inspired is to also reject the majority of the foundation upon which modern apologetics, evangelism, and nearly all theological work is based upon.

Our foundation is Christ and our message is the Gospel- It was this group of men and women who laid the foundation for explaining, teaching and reaching people with these most basic and vital of truths. There are those two often brought up in these discussion, namely Hermas and Irenaeus, however there was also as mentioned in this article Cyprian and Ephraim the Syrian. What many do not catch perhaps because they have not read the whole of their writings for the complete context of statements is that Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria also spoke of a rapture scenario, though not using the word specifically.

Finally, there are accounts of Clement of Rome referencing such a scenario as well in his teachings, though most of his writings are lost to the ages, it seems. In terms of the rapture being an invention of John Darby, as was the charge I was responding to originally, one must realize that John Darby lived from to , and only began espousing his take on the rapture sometime in his early thirties. What follows is a partial list, and dates to make the point:. Thanks for that excellent explanation.

The reason for this belief is a lot of complex studies on language, structure, context and a crazy amount of comparison and critical examination. Long and short of it is that it is around this point that the word s used to describe the Church cease to be used until speaking of it specifically with Christ.

Everything in between takes place on Earth or around Earth without the specific referenced Church present.

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Regardless, as I said to James Fox, we live as though Christ returns in our next breath, and prepare as though He returns at the bitter end. How often will you see these 3 events happen at the same time? The obvious explanation is they are the same event. Also note Rev 6: Are we supposed to believe there is an even greater day of wrath 3. It does not say that.

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It says THIS is the great day of wrath. Not some future day. How often will you see these events happen at the same time? It is an extremely important event. The earthquake in Rev. Which event is it? The last couple of months have been trying for my wife and I, as we have been reeling from a severe financial blow. God bless you and your wife RETS! David, we live in New Mexico. God has nonetheless been faithful and good to provide our needs and bring us to cool places for the hottest parts of the day.

By the way, it should be noted that Rev. However it is missing earthquake and hailstorm. They are on the earth. You were responding to Suzanne. I read all her comments in this thread and she did not say anything like this. I would be astonished if anyone thought that Darby invented the Rapture. The Rapture is clearly in 1 Thess 4: What Darby did was rediscover the idea that the Rapture was at the beginning of the Tribulation.

He thought he was the first with this idea.

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Actually, Ephraim of Nisibis thought the Tribulation was 3. Ephraim is the only one before Darby who clearly thought the Rapture was before the Tribulation. Darby essentially invented the idea of pre-tribulationism but he did not invent the idea of Rapture. However, Edward Irvine another theologian is said to of mentioned the rapture prior to Darby, but there is insufficient evidence that exist on this matter.

Moody the founder of the famous Moody Bible Institution, is probable the greatest promulgator of the Darby rapture doctrine, and it is he who conservative Christians have to thank for what they have today concerning the rapture. Although it was past from Moody to other theologian who were part or came into contact with the Moody institute, such as Cyrus Scofield, L.

Darby can also put Dispensationalism to his inventions, as both go together, along with other very long 19th century words, such as: On the prophecy of the rapture doctrine, hundreds or even thousands have been predicted over the centuries, but none have come to fruition, even this month September 23rd a Mark Biltz? Which is another prophecy for financial gain through books, etc. I think this has been said before! On the prophecy of the rapture doctrine, hundreds or even thousands have been predicted over the centuries, but none have come to fruition,.

Mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib could be true but not pre-trib. It should have read: On the prophecy of the rapture doctrine, hundreds or even thousands have been predicted over the century, but none have come to fruition. Again I was wrong to use the term rapture in the prophecy, which is also misleading, and I am sorry for that. It should of been the return or the 2nd coming of Jesus, which hundreds of prophecies have been foretold, in the past and there are several still to come in the future, with the next prediction coming in 25 days from now September 28th I am not putting it down to old age, tiredness or the excitement of the last few days, for my mistakes.

I should have concentrated more on the subject, and for that I am again truly sorry to you. I would very much like to see what you base your statement upon. It is also one that I have not seen a great deal of evidence for in my studies. As a second point, thank you for pointing out that my response was to Suzanne- But it was actually to Ryan Waldrop, and referencing Scofield. It seems ironic to me that I have heard from two camps on the issue of pre-trib rapture being false: One group believes the notion was invented by Darby, the other by Scofield.

However, I do appreciate you pointing out who I was originally responding to as it has given me the opportunity to correct myself. Though the argument against a pre-trib rapture using Darby is in almost every fundamental way the same as that using Scofield, I would rather be as accurate as possible, and correct anything I was mistaken on in terms of factual reference. You would absolutely be surprised then.

I regularly run into no fewer than people a year that are firmly convinced Darby invented the rapture; they do not believe 1 Ths 5: My friend, they are out there, and they are…. Clement of Alexandria, for instance, spoke of a pre-trib and a post-trib set of scenarios- He settled on a mid-trib outlook, but his early works were decidedly pre. Anyway- God bless and take care. This is one aspect of our shared faith that does not actually affect our salvation: We live as though Christ returns in our next breath, and we prepare as though His return is at the bitter end.

Hermas meets a horrific satanic beast. But the beast lies down in front of him and Hermas passes by. The Apostolic Fathers, I, Blessed are you who will endure the great persecution that is to come…. So Thiessen is wrong, Hermas is not pre-trib. I took Bell at his word that there were no other passages from the church fathers that taught pre-trib. He also mentioned another, Brother Dolcino AD.

I did not mention him because I think is not a church father. If there were any other pre-trib church fathers LaHaye would surely have mentioned them. So I assume there are no others. If they think Darby is heresy then they are probably post-trib. Post-trib does indeed believe 1 Thess. How can anybody says this is not the Rapture.

They may think it is the Second Advent, but it must at least be the Rapture too. Can you quote them and give chapter and verse? Perhaps like Hermas, they said something that might be construed as pre-trib but later they said the church would go through the Tribulation so they can not be pre-trib. You are correct there were many disciples of the Apostles church fathers that believed in the Pre-trib scenario and made it clear. Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.

I know of one church father who believed in a pre-trib rapture — pseudo-ephraem — who you quoted. I think he is a good scholar. I like it even if I disagree with him over the Rapture. The only clear early church father he cites is Pseudo Ephraem. He also mentions Brother Dolcino but he was AD , not exactly an early church father.


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  5. The Shepherd does not say they will be taken away. If there were other examples of pre-trib early church fathers, then Tim LaHaye would certainly have cited them. I know of one church father who believed in a pre-trib rapture — Pseudo Ephraem — who you quoted. I once wanted to believe in mid-post trib theory. But after studying the scriptures and looking at every belief position and arguments, I am forced to believe in pre-trib rapture.

    And an obvious gap for the era of the Gentil-Church-Spouse of Christ. God is dealing with the Jews and Christ is dealing with the believers. God needs to bring back His spouse-nation-children people that are temporarily separated due to the breaking of the covenant. Christ and the Church are not related to that covenant and to that separation. The Christian and the Jews have different jobs for the millennial and post that. I take from your comments that you do not believe that Jesus Christ was the last blood sacrifice for the sins of the world including gentiles, white jews, sephardic jews, and other jews?

    You seem to be saying that the so called jews are protected and the old covenant is still inforce for them and they will restart butchering of animals for sin. Where does Jesus say he is coming back twice? If you want all the study on that, well read the Bible. God has a covenant with the Jews and will never break it.

    Why would he have brought them back to their land and save them in the six days war and so on. Was not expecting this. I apologies for being rude but sometime it shake someone good enough to let the light shine. Jesus is not coming back to earth twice only once. Surely sounds like it. I waited a long time to answer this because my first replies where much worse than this.

    I presently believe post trib or at least mid trib but I want to be wrong of course. If you receive this and want to take the time to explain, I would certainly appreciate it. This is not enough for a proper study but is a good start. One need to understand the references made by Jesus: There are many mansions… — Only the Father knows the day and the hour — The Groom hide the Bride for a week 7 days.

    Then you start realizing that Matt The Father and the Son would go on a rampage in the city and beat up His bride just before the wedding celebration starts. The first four has been fulfilled by Jesus, then comes:. The feast of Trumpet: The last trump being distinct from the others. The Feast of Atonement: Yes related to Jesus second coming when the remnant recognize Him and beg for forgiveness, which He grants. Last one is the Tabernacle: When God Himself comes and tabernacles abide with them.

    You can read Exodus 19 with a different eye now. God comes down on a cloud and Moses go up to the cloud to meet with God. Like in the days of Noah and Lot. All mid-post and most pre tribulation concepts talks about how bad it was in those days and then they stop. The article you cited was interesting but I wonder if part of this is modern custom, not ancient custom. Again the couple would say a blessing over the cup of wine. The ceremony finalized the promises and vows. The pinnacle of this joyful celebration was the marriage supper: It was much more than just a sit down dinner for all the guests.

    It included seven full days of food, music, dance and celebration — Jn. After the festivities the husband was free to bring his bride to their new home to live together as husband and wife in the full covenant of marriage. I have been to a Jewish wedding in Israel. They had a huppa. They said a blessing over a cup of wine. They had vows and promises. Modern Jewish weddings are as removed and different from the ancient Jewish marriage culture of the first century as Christian weddings are. He is quite plain, there was no ceremony in the synagogue under a canopy.

    There was no vows. When the father of the groom deemed that the bridal chamber was ready, he would give his approval for the groom to claim his bride. He and his young men would set out in the night, making every attempt to completely surprise the bride. Thus, the groom and his attendants would make their way by torch light through the dark streets of the town to the house of the bride.

    Come out to meet him. Having claimed the bride, the party would return to the bridal chamber where the nuptials themselves would begin. According to him the groom came to get his bride and took her back to have sex. He said it was late at night. There are no synagogue services at midnight. After he gets his bride he rushes back with his bride in order to have sex. Sebastian, thanks so much! I learned a lot and I appreciate your posts in particular. Keep up the great work and God bless you!

    What I was saying is that Christians are not part of the Moses covenants in the desert. I do believe that Christians are the spiritual posterity and Jews the physical posterity. That is done spiritually. We do not become physically Jewish. He also states that branches were taken of for their unbelief. He can only refers to the Jewish nation as a whole and to not be arrogant towards them.

    Jews are put back on the tree because of their belief of the Messiah not because of their nationality. But God had a covenant with the nation and will come back for the nation and the end of the tribulation unfortunately. This is my point of view on the technicalities of it. I just disagree with those saying that Christians, The Church, is the new Israel and that we obtain the promises made to the Jewish nation.

    There are a lot more verses that can be quoted like that! You can even find some in the koran small case on purpose. Come on people stop accusing others of lying without proof and quoting verses like that. That is very hurtful. What are you saying to non-believers if you can say that to Christians. Paul is waiting for the rapture in what 51 A. The first events that might have been misinterpreted very doubtful is the destruction of the temple in 70 A. For the last six years I have been beating my head against a wall of blind indifference declaring that Kenyan-born gay Moslem commie Obama IS The Antichrist.

    Nobody wants to hear it so undoubtedly the Rapture will occur before most people recognize just how late the hour is. For starters in Luke Lightning warns of a coming storm. Oddly that same word means lightning in Arabic, Aramaic, Greek and even Korean. Obama meets ALL of the criteria of the man-of-lawlessness up until the fatal-blow. Every aspect of his existence is surrounded by evil and foreboding. I could go on for at least an hour about this usurper but in summation: Well, it seems that my real life got a great deal busier than I expected.

    First, the breakdown of his name, and where there is a gap in the actual scholarship of that proof. Bear in mind, that this should not be seen as a defense of Obama as a president or as a man. I have met him in person, and while he is genuinely easy to get along with and though he has a great sense of humor, he is not a leader; he is not a Christian nor a Muslim ; and he is most certainly not a good man in any sense of the biblical meaning of that word. However, I do believe it necessary for the sake of our faith to be accurate in everything that we put forward as fact; and where there can be found no fact, that we should be very clear in labeling them opinions.

    I am also not belittling you as a person in any way, shape or form- And I want to make sure you understand that as well. Lastly, I am coming to this discussion as a man who began researching Obama when he was first elected to the Illinois senate. In other words, the sheer documentation I have on the man rivals much of what people today can find. In addition, I was not aware that there was a possibility of having two antichrists on the earth at the same time, that must be a first, and there is me thinking I knew my Bible.

    However, on the rapture this is what a Christian organization says on that, and I reiterate that these are not my words, although they carry my sentiment: Over the past years, countless groups and individuals have compared events of their time to Bible prophecies and come to the conclusion that Jesus would be returning soon. Some have set a specific date and led their followers into the wilderness to wait for Christ to come.

    Every one of those predictions turned out to be wrong, but that has not deterred people from making modern-day predictions that Jesus will be returning in the near future. Most mainstream Bible scholars, however, do not think current world affairs are evidence of the imminent return of Christ. As the above Christian quote states: The tetrads, the Jewish feasts and the Shemita year combine with what is going on in our geopolitical world and weather patterns all matchup to Bible prophecy concerning the last days. If these are the last days Kenyan-born gay Moslem commie left-handed Obama must be the Antichrist.

    Please show me a single verse in the Bible that proves me wrong. As for your 2nd antichrist Pope Francis or as you term petrus Romanus, the last pope, which I take is another prophecy, however, I will cide that Catholicism has no authority on the claim that Peter was ever in Rome, and there is no evidence of him being the first bishop of Rome pope.

    As the scholarship acknowledges that there was no monarchical episcopate one man bishopric until the mid 2nd century, and that Linus was the first bishop of Rome in the earliest manuscripts. Peter as the bishop of Rome did not appear or exist before the late 2nd or early 3rd century.

    Those people know the truth about the Kenyan-birth, homosexuality, drug-usage, etc. Prepper Thanks for the links, but no thanks, I am too old and too tired to follow Christian myths that try to authenticate biblical prophecies, etc. Anyone with an access to a library or computer linked to the W.

    W can source all the materials they want to make a prophecy seem true. However, the prophecy of the antichrist has been foretold for millennia, in fact from the early 2nd century, were clerics, scholars, and mathematicians looked at the so-called antichrist prophecy from the book of Revelation. They came up with a names or marks, and a numerical number that fits all the relevant numerical systems of the day, which were Hebrew, Greek, and Roman, and all gave an answer that fitted an organised religion.

    However, like all biblical prophecies that came and went, and those that have been foretold such as the antichrist, and the rapture are called preterism, which is a Christian eschatological view of prophecies that have ended. However, you will have to discover the truth of the myth through the three numerical system as aforesaid, Greek, Roman, and Hebrew, and even Arabic if you are after all the myths. That said there are several numerical clues to the number name or mark of the antichrist, but all are linked as I have said to a religious organisation.

    I proudly admit to being a homophobe and an Islamophobe as that is just my self-defense mechanism kicking in. He will use Ebola as the excuse combined with riots, etc. Anything to not be impeached and removed from office to face a firing-squad. I think that no one will be able to have any kind of powers to fool humans into believing they are GOD the antichrist until JESUS comes back for The Rapture, therefore releasing the world from living under The Grace period. Many people can be affected by the spirit of antichrist.

    However, the accusation of being the Antichrist is a serious one which even Hitler, Pol Pot, and Chairman Mao among other despicable pieces of trash do not deserve. We are going to be going chapter by chapter through Revelation from Ch. Agreed there, before you even release the article.

    As I recall, the Antichrist is without known origin, though he will cause the Jews to believe he is of the line of David. No offense, this is in the spirit of debate and trying to save lost souls. How can you say that the anti christ is without known origin? I think you have much study to do. THE arch angel…the Cherubim that was supposed to cover the mercy seat until Jesus seats himself on it…the Bible clearly states this.

    The anti is indeed of known origin. In other words, your contention is that Satan will manifest himself physically? Do I understand you correctly? And, may I ask, what is your proof? Answer this for me, then… Where is the reigning Christ? A man that was wounded? We will be here during the Tribulation, most of us will be killed for our Faith, but some will be alive.. Why do so many people think that they will escape being persecuted, while other Christians are being killed and tortured all around the world.

    Darby did invent the rapture theory. I agree with David Paul! Thank you for your comments. However, I am very confused and dismayed by the sentiments you express. First and foremost, theology debate aside, what is the reason for the tone you post with? I have been involved in MANY debates online in many Christian forums about the Rapture, and I completely fail to grasp the extreme adversarial tone of so many of the discussions.

    Rapture theology is not a fundamental doctrine of the faith. In other words, I do not think that anyone who believes the post-trib rapture model is a heretic, false prophet etc. End time prophecy is an area we are working our way through, trying our best to understand Scripture. So I do not know why you feel a need to have a very haughty and angry tone towards those who hold to a different Rapture model than you do? But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, p eace, longsuffering, gentleness , goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: Where are your fruits in this discussion?

    What does it profit to be right in your interpretation if your tune is one of high-mindedness and condescension? Now on to the specific theology: And as such, I am going to hold you to your assertions. Thus far you have not offered anything Biblically to support you view on the Rapture. Nor have you shown in any way, how the articles on this site are incorrect — by actually using Scripture. If I am in error, simply point out the correc Biblical interpretation.

    You are making a number of claims with no exegesis to back them up. The one verse you cite is Revelation Revelation 13 is clear that those who do not worship the Antichrist are killed. Christians are not left to be ruled. So again I ask, if you are going to make such strong accusations and claims, please provide your Biblical support for your rapture model and rightly divide Scripture for us. Otherwise, you are engaging in rather irresponsible behavior. I look forward continuing the discussion.

    I put myself in their shoes. I read, watch or listen to stuff about the mid-post tribulation rapture. Then I look up websites that talks about the pre-tribulation rapture and unload unfounded stories and conclusions in an arrogant and borderline insulting manner on other Christians for their desire to share what Paul is clearly waiting for. On another site about the rapture, somebody was marketing his book on the post-trip rapture and literally claimed that the pre-trib believers were morons and stupid.

    He gave me a magic reference verse that turned out to be totally unfounded and obviously taken out of context. Then told me to look at the first fruit law an to get ready for the heavy artillery. Turns out the Law of First fruit convinced me even more of the pre-tribulation rapture.

    Again no proof just trash talking. On the other hand, for each Christians that has suffered and died a martyr, at least a died peacefully of old age. The focus on the unfairness of escaping the tribulation is unfounded and not biblical but very emotional. I know, I went through the same things a year ago. He will overcome the saints and kill them. Again the use of emotion dictate their analysis. So there will only be , raptured?

    So are they Christian Jews also Raptured? How many Rapture will take place before the Second Advent? What comprises the First Resurrection? Thanks for your questions. The context of Rev 14 is in Heaven which is where Mt. But ye are come unto mount SION , and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, — Hebrews The , are firstfruits unto The Lord in that they are the first martyrs of the believing Jewish remnant.

    They are not raptured. The entire context of Revelation 14 is death — people being killed during the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 7 — these are Messianic Jews, obviously. They are going to preach the Gospel. They are sealed in their foreheads by angelic beings. So whether by supernatural witness or hearing the Gospel from a person, these , Jewish men will be witnesses of the Gospel during the Great Tribulation.

    There is one Rapture before the Second Advent — and that is at the opening of the 6th Seal. The multitude of Revelation 7 is the Raptured church. Many people are resurrected throughout the Bible. Ilijah and Elisha both resurrected young men in 1 Kings 17 and 2 Kings 4 respectively. We know The Lord raised Lazarus from the dead. We know The Lord Himself resurrected from the dead. Clearly, it is not the first in the Bible. So we have to look to the context:.

    And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. This Resurrection has a very specific timing — it is after Satan has been locked in the abyss for 1, years.

    My sons rapture dream folded clothes! Jesus is coming

    It is officially the time of the Milennial Kingdom. Christ is now ruling the Earth from the throne of David. This group is NOT all Christians of all time. It is only those who were alive during the Great Tribulation and were martyred. There is no other way to read this passage without adding to Scripture. So this is definitely not the Rapture. Instead it is the First Resurrection in the millennial Kingdom. This era ends upon His return to Earth. I hope that clears it up and I welcome your thoughts on the Scripture you use to support your interpretations.

    This is the first resurrection. The great evangelist Ironsides thought there were 2 or 3 raptures in the Tribulation. Pre-tribbers routinely state that the first resurrection happens in 2 stages. Stage 1 is a resurrection at the beginning of the Tribulation. Ironsides thinks this is a third stage — the two witnesses. He said he was not sure but he thought the death of the 2 witnesses happened in the middle of the week. They are, perhaps, identical with the two witnesses of Chapter 11 though I do not press this.

    He accepts the possibility of 3 raptures in Revelation! The first one is not mentioned but he know it exists pre-trib. Why did he say Rev He did not explain. Let me try to read between the lines. The people in verse 2 hold harps which means they have bodies. This means they have been resurrected.

    They are in heaven so they have been resurrected and caught up to heaven. That means they have been raptured. The , are chosen by God because of their purity , faith and conviction to him , but they are chosen for these reasons to stay behind during the rapture. They will preach the Gospel of Christ Jesus to those whom are left behind and comfort them with the knowledge that a better place waits for them if they keep their faith in him. It is my understanding that the Anti-Christ will reveal himself before the rapture actually happens but regaurdless if he is revealed before or during , the important thing to know is that this will all happen.

    No true Christian will be left behind and ALL save the demonds of the Anti-Christ who are left behind will have the opportunity to be save through Jesus. People have a tendancy to over complicate all of this when in reality salvation is not a complicated matter. If your leg is broken what matters more ; the way it twisted when it broke , where you were when it broke , the way you fell or were hit when it broke , or simply that you need it mended?

    Going against the Resurrection of the dead on the Third Day belief of the Saducees. Philip after he shared the Gospel to the Eunuch was taken out in spirit and found himself in another place. Scriptures says the bodies of the Holy people who was raised to life at the moment Jesus died on the cross, they went to the city and appeared to many people, no mentioned of their ascension to Heaven after some time or whether they ascended together with Jesus. So I think Christ is the only one first to get to Heaven.

    4 Things Every Christian Should Know about the Rapture

    He was the Firstfruit among the dead. The Spirit that Stephen gave up to God is the breath of life. Even what Jesus gave up also was the breathe of life that belongs to God, but only Jesus ascended to Heaven. All the believers are under the altar and are not yet in Heaven Rev. They do not belong to the Second resurrection and the second death has no power on them.

    The people who belong to the Second Resurrection are the ff: Dead from the sea all throughout the 7, years 2. The rest of the Dead that did not come to life after the First Resurrection 4. The Sheep and The Goats 5. The nations that was established through the remnants of Israel and other survivors of the Armageddon war Tribulation was cut short so that there would be remnants to repopulate the millennium. You, by your response, seem to be in agreement on this point. And in context it is the First Resurrection of the Millennial Kingdom. That is what the First means.

    It is not the Rapture. They are not in the clouds, where the Raptured church is found. And these saints of Revelation 20 remain on Earth. So by no real Biblical measure does this passage match the description of the Rapture as given in 1 Thessalonians 4 which is by far the clearest text on the Rapture in the Bible:. And Elisha said unto him, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee.

    So they came to Jericho. And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And they two went on. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. I have noticed both camps- pre trib and post trib have been edgy, arrogant, and defensive lately.

    I guess some people think this kind of tone supports their position better. ALSO 2 Thes 2 whom the lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming….. Salvation is gift-wrapped and on the table for anyone who cares to accept it. We are mere ambassadors for Christ, nothing more. God works through us to spread his word , and in that respect we are needed here to save souls. This is the reason for God leaving his , behind after the rapture , to gather those who will still listen to the word.

    Miller Just been going some sums on the tribulation. However, on the number of survivors, the Bible says it is the children from the 12 tribes of Israel. If, however, we are to belief the prophecy according to you and other fundamentalist, we can calculate the survivors from each land, as there are countries in the world. If you base this on the USA, which has according to the Hartford Institute, who estimate that there are roughly , religious congregations in the whole of USA. Then it would work out that 0.

    The false prophet Paul, said: I am no spring chicken, and in my time alone there have been more than 50 prophecies on this subject up to , and I think the last main prediction I remember well, was in by Edgar C. I would hazard a guess that from the purported time of Paul, there have been many thousands of prophecies been predicted on this one subject.

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